You spent ten years in Brussels. What will you miss the most?
The hustle and bustle of the European Parliament. Also, being a professional politician. This has been more than ten years for me; I’ve been an elected representative since I was twenty years old.
You spent most of this time in Hungary. So what will you particularly miss from Brussels?
From active politics, I’ll miss the ability to have an impact on various programs and legislation. It’s no coincidence that I was nominated for EP Representative of the Year four times in ten years, and that I did receive the award twice. And I will miss, for example, being able to influence the European pharmaceutical package that we have just adopted. I won’t miss Brussels because I’ll partially remain here.
What I actually wanted to ask if there’s anything you will miss from the city itself, but since you’re staying, I guess not.
I’m staying. From June onwards, we’ll be operating a small NGO, which will be part think tank and part consulting firm, leveraging our expertise and connections. Also, I will become the head of the Brussels branch of the UN World Tourism Organisation, where I have been already serving as ambassador extraordinary.
What will be the focus of this NGO?
Primarily my previous professional areas: tourism, transportation, and health policy. In these areas, we will utilise my connections and expertise from America to Malta, from China to Mongolia. I have very exciting ambitions after having built significant networks in various parts of the world. I want to play a bridging role between different parts of the world from Brussels. I view the world from both Hungarian and Brussels perspectives. The current cold war-like situation, where America and China are at odds with each other and Europe is just trying to find its place, will not be healthy for either party. My obsession is that Europe needs to grow up to the task of becoming an independent player and playing a continuous mediating role alongside the two major players. This chair needs three legs not to fall over.
Connectivity, as Orbán Balázs says?
Connectivity, absolutely. I will also be working on the board of directors at one of the most significant American companies dealing with public-governmental relations. This was a surprising invitation, one that I am greatly honoured by. They also knew that I would become the global vice president of one of China and Asia’s largest private tourism companies.
So, I will have simultaneous appointments from both the US and China, both in advisory roles. Both sides know about each other and are happy that someone is at least trying to mediate between the two parties amidst this cold war-like situation.
In this cold war-like situation, China’s relationship with the United States is becoming increasingly extreme. In this relationship, Hungary and the European Union are fundamentally allies of the United States, also being part of a common defence organization. You have had close ties with China before. A few months ago, for example, you announced that you would advise the Shenzhen Chamber of Commerce.
That was an honorary appointment that everyone misunderstood. Some intentionally, some unintentionally.
Isn’t it just lobbying?
No. If you go to China and give three reasonable lectures on what this relationship should look like from a European perspective, you will immediately be invited as a distinguished guest and speaker to eight universities and three chambers. This is not a paid position; it’s a relationship-building role.
You previously also established a tourism organisation under the name One Belt, One Road.
This was a Brussels-based organization specifically built for the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative. It fostered relationships in education, culture, and tourism. Few can say that every time they visit America, they are received by all the leaders of the tourism industry, and every time they are in Beijing, they negotiate with all their Chinese counterparts. This is a special situation that I want to continue nurturing from Brussels.
When news surfaced regarding your Chinese advisory position, many questioned how this could be done as a Member of the European Parliament. Did you not see any problem with maintaining close relationships with non-EU players as an active MEP?
That’s precisely my task. Why doesn’t anyone question what I’m doing in Washington? The same could be asked about my relationships with Kenya, Rwanda, and all my other connections. Our MEP office is one of the most transparent in the European Parliament. We regularly disclose all meetings on the transparency page. I don’t hide in dark pubs; I deliberately meet people in here. I believe that the diplomatic role I must fulfil serves the security of Europe. It makes no sense what a couple other MEPs do, to talk only about Chinese corruption and issues with the government in their proposals regarding EU-China relations. That is not your job; your job is to find out where European companies have interests in cooperation. This same cooperation is what I’m looking for both in Beijing and in Washington as well. But there is one taboo.
Since the outbreak of the war, I refuse to deal with Moscow or anything in Russian interests. Not even a greeting.
What’s the difference between Russia and China? According to the Western standpoint, they both seem to be becoming equally hostile countries.
But that’s not the case. Yesterday, the leader of one of the most significant American pharmaceutical companies sat in that same chair. The American economic sector does not view China the same way their government does. When Donald Trump was the leader of the United States, it was almost considered embarrassing in Brussels to meet with American leaders. But we can’t change the way we deal with economic players every year based on our changing opinions. Europe, China, and America need to work together.
What’s the difference between China and Russia?
China is not an aggressor. Russia is an aggressor whose behaviour is shaped by old reflexes. Especially Putin, who is a power player capable of the dirtiest of deeds.
There have been several attempts at externally influencing the European Parliament recently. Without equating the two, it can indeed be raised that MEPs who have overly close relationships with external actors may be influenced by these actors in their professional work. You’ve also been asked why you abstained from political statements condemning China.
I believe that when discussing China, the resolutions should focus on protecting our own healthcare industry and building cooperation in cybersecurity. It should be about collaboration. If the paper on cooperation is full of heavily Western-biased criticisms, then you can’t just start cherry-picking to remove sentences you know aren’t true. In that case, the solution is to abstain. Eight years ago, we decided to do play this game and write amendments for days, eventually submitting 150-200 amendments to such a resolution. The office had worked on it for days, and they were all voted down in three minutes. Since then, I rather just abstain from things I don’t find perfect since I don’t want to explain myself for voting for or against each questionable point.
This response is interesting because if your notions weren’t stated to have been said by István Ujhelyi, former socialist state secretary and left-wing MEP, one could easily think that this statement was made by a member of Fidesz.
Yet it remains valid.
Could Fidesz members be right?
Why couldn’t they be?
Regarding Hungary, I was perplexed by the outrage when Péter Magyar had talked about a Fidesz without Orbán. Why couldn’t a Fidesz politician have sensible proposals? Why do we always have to talk about who submitted a certain proposal? I don’t like such cages; I need freedom. In voting sessions I’ve often gone again the mainstream of the socialist EP faction as I am much more patriotic and nationalistic than perhaps other representatives here.
Taking a step back to a supposed Fidesz without Orbán: isn’t Viktor Orbán Fidesz himself?
Yes, he is. But I wasn’t talking about the system. I believe Hungary needs a regime change, just as it happened in the 1980s. The state-party needed to be dismantled, including its institutions. I vividly remember the situation in ’89 when external intellectuals struggled to find a way out of the one-party system by organising among themselves, and eventual change came when ‘reform-socialists’ had broken away from the ruling party. Was it possible back then to cooperate with former state socialists? That was subject to huge debates. Eventually, socialists and liberals realised that they needed to lead the country together against an increasingly radically right-leaning MDF.
So a Fidesz without Orbán could resemble the Hungarian Socialist Party after MSZMP? (MSZMP was the socialist ruling party of the one-party system).
We don’t know if there will be a Fidesz after Orbán. I wouldn’t call that political force the Alliance of Young Democrats (FIDESZ is an acronym thereof) anymore. But it’s obvious that one or two parties will emerge from the ruins of Fidesz. And I don’t want to judge politicians based on whether they were involved with Fidesz, but rather on the roles they had played.
Whom does Péter Magyar truly pose a threat to?
In the short term, he endangers the opposition; in the medium term, he threatens the entire system. It’s interesting to see, for example, how Momentum initially reflexively pushed the phenomenon away, but since then, it seems they are starting to understand something, and the total rejection has softened. In Momentum’s stead, I wouldn’t be furious about the Péter Magyar-phenomenon; instead, I would embrace the role of the system’s liberal party and appeal to liberal voters.
Does that suffice to earn two mandates? Is there eight per cent’s worth of Hungarian liberals?
Of course there is. Especially if what Péter Magyar has now started takes the country by storm and disrupts everything. I must admit, I really enjoy this situation; my problem was that Hungarian politics had become such a swamp that we were pulling each other back in. This swamp needs to be drained. And now MSZP is completely dissolving in DK, which many socialists don’t like.
Are you watching the events with schadenfreude?
I’m watching with plans for the future. That’s very different. However, I’m particularly disapproving of how Péter Magyar’s Tisza Party is running against successful and established opposition mayors, for example in Budapest. It’s a serious challenge for Magyar and his team not to get carried away by the momentum and bite off more than they can chew. If they overdo things, they could cause serious harm. Provided, of course, that replacing Fidesz is truly their goal.
Returning to a previous notion: before announcing your retirement from politics, you had attempted to take over power in MSZP. You didn’t succeed.
I wanted to build a fresh, new-generation social democratic party from the basis of MSZP with a new name, new foundations, new operating methods, and preferably new faces. If the current changes had been happening at the time of my former ambitions, the situation would be completely different now. I used to be a swallow, so to speak; I couldn’t find my nest. I failed in this regard, but at least I admit it, and I didn’t try to assimilate back into the lukewarm thing we call opposition politics in Hungary. It’s momentum inside me, not schadenfreude. If the current changes persist, the end of the system may be much closer than we thought.
A year ago, I would say the end of the system depends on the prime minister’s physical condition. I see it differently now, and that’s why my pen is getting restless; because I feel I now know how to think about that modern, European social democratic party that could come after the purge.
If not Momentum, should Zsolt Molnár be furious?
MSZP has merged into DK. I, who joined MSZP at the age of 18, looked on with tears in my eyes as my former community melted into another party. I don’t want to talk about Zsolt Molnár anymore; of former comrades good or nothing is to be said.
Then let’s discuss Ferenc Gyurcsány.
He is also a former comrade.
However, in 2008, you resigned from your state secretarial position due to political differences. So is it particularly painful that he’s the one to merge in MSZP? (DK was founded by former Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány).
In the past I also negotiated with Gyurcsány about whether I should be on the EP list of the Democratic Coalition (DK). I argued that if we could reach a general agreement with sufficient freedom regarding Esély Közösség (“Chance Community”) I had created, one which guaranteed that we could build our community, then I would have been in on the opportunity. Once it became clear that they would have me as an expendable soldier, an officer in a military-like machine, President Klára Dobrev and I looked each other in the eye and agreed not to compromise.
According to rumours at the time, you would have been given the fifth place on the list, which was teetering on the edge of not getting a mandate according to measurements at the time. The message could have been, “you can come, István, but then you have to work for it.” In the end, the fifth place went to MSZP and Kata Tüttő.
What I heard was somewhere between the fourth and seventh place. I made a tough decision, packed up my office, and announced my resignation. Anyone who knows me knows that what kills me is when I don’t have the freedom to work.
Do you see not returning to the European Parliament as a failure?
No. I am very happy with my decision at the time. I will have serious positions, significant even on an international scale, and I can finally prove that I’m not one of those politicians who need to cling to their seats since they don’t have the ability to create another livelihood. If someone were to come tomorrow and say, “we’ve changed our minds, you are to be the leader of the left-wing grand alliance, with a guaranteed mandate”, I would still say no, hands down.
I really want to test myself outside of politics, and I want to come back to politics with more experience than if I had stayed in the same seat.
So this isn’t a farewell, but rather you expect that perhaps it will actually turn out well for you as you can sit out the purges that could come within the opposition?
You’re absolutely right. I had warned my former colleagues still in time that radical changes were needed for the opposition side to be credible to voters. I even made suggestions on how to achieve this. At the time, my community wanted none of that. It doesn’t necessarily make me happy, but as I see it, time will prove me right. There may be significant changes within one or two years, or they may take ten to fifteen years, but changes will come. I adjusted my own life strategy accordingly. I recommend it to other colleagues as well, because it’s liberating to see that you are competent in other things too.
Let’s talk about the European Parliament. Is the work done by the EP useful?
Yes. If one finds the areas where they can be useful to the European community and can effectively convey it to the public, then the work is useful. In recent years, Europe’s internal immune system has begun to signal and address that there are not only external but internal threats as well, for example, in terms of the rule of law. This is thanks to the Parliament. The Council and the Commission would play around with organising debates regarding Article 7 for years, and nothing would happen. The European Parliament, as a body of elected representatives, has been tougher in these debates. I myself have been one of the fiercest and most outspoken opponents of the Orbán-regime on this Brussels front, and I’ve received my fair share from the government’s propaganda machine for it.
And there are many areas under European jurisdiction, and it really matters what laws and framework programs are enacted and what we allocate funds to. Let me give you an example, sticking to myself: in these five years, both the Commission and the Council have recognised that the European Health Union program, of which I am an initiator and flag-bearer, is indeed important. This is about nothing less than ensuring that whether you live in Germany, Malta or anywhere else in Europe you receive the same medical care that the residents of that country are entitled to. Europe hasn’t dealt with this until now.
Healthcare is not even an EU competence.
That’s precisely why it’s a difficult question. The Hungarian government has repeatedly thrown at me that supporting the health union is a sovereignty issue, but we’ve managed to push through numerous initiatives, from the cancer prevention program to programs regulating healthcare frameworks. While many representatives just drift about in the Parliament, I loved delving into my three areas of expertise and making a name for myself. Working in the health, tourism, and transportation workshops meant, for example, that I could participate in creating the digital COVID certificate, which was our initiative. As was the abolition of roaming charges, too. When I started working in the Parliament, I still had to pay hefty roaming fees. I could list more specific cases, such as the free train pass program for eighteen-year-olds, which has already provided travel opportunities for thousands of young Hungarians. I mentored this program until its realisation, which I’m particularly proud of.
The European Parliament doesn’t have the authority to initiate legislation. Only the Commission can do that. Right now, there are 705 people in the European Parliament. You’ve been working with most of them for ten years, you know them. Do you trust them to the extent that you’d say they should be given the right to initiate legislation?
Of course, and I’d like for this to be included if the reforming of the EU is indeed realised. But let me tell you a secret: there’s a loophole here too. Even though I can’t initiate legislation, I know those in the Commission or in national governments who can. And even if I can’t ask the Hungarian minister, I can ask the French one to take action on an issue.
If someone from a small Hungarian town saw how an MEP lived, would they feel upset? They’re chauffeured around, earn well, and get a nice apartment. Is this a comfortable job?
I’d gladly support having a reality show where people could see how much each representative works. Here, you get the same amount of money even if you do nothing, just come in, sign some papers, and go home. Like in a factory, you have to check-in. But if you’re here for five minutes, you still get your salary. Traian Băsescu, the famous-infamous former Romanian president, is an MEP at the same time as several young talents in their twenties who, the way I already see, will become leaders in their countries. This is an interesting career; some come here to wind down, others try to start here. The quality of MEPs has changed a lot even during my ten years, but those who have been here for a truly long time will attest that there’s a world of difference.
Tell me one thing you’ve really grown to love about this city in ten years.
The parks. I love that the lakes and parks are everywhere in the city.
And tell me one bad thing.
The quality of everyday services, including the window fitter, whom I’ve been waiting for a year and a half to replace a window in my apartment.
